Make Light Sloops more targetable in pvp...
 

I don't know about you guys, but I'm sick and tired of getting a 60,000G War Frigate owned by a 100G Light sloop in pvp. In a 1v1 fight with equal crews, Light Frigates will always win (with the rare exception of course).

It seems to me that they reduced the Light Sloops targetable area in pvp which is why they are so hard to hit with broadsides...not to mention how hard they are to hit with cannons.

I understand the need to let lowbies have some sort of chance in pvp, which is probably why this was done. That said, it is not the lowbies who are using them...it is the lvl 25 cannon guys that are.

Just compare how easy it is to hit a War Galleon compared to a Light Sloop in pvp...the difference is insane. Not that I would ever use a War Galleon for pvp myself, but some do.

This needs to be fixed along with the repair glitch for ship pvp.

It's not so much a glitch like but I personally love my light sloop and yes I am high level cannon and mediocre level sailing... its just the strategy of using that ship...

It isnt a glitch light sloops are hard to hit period. NPC light sloops are a pain to sink with a war ship even before SVS so why make them easier. Sloops are known for their fast sailing manueverablilty and small size. Plus it poses a challenge to players to sink them but if u do hit them 2 lightning strikes will sink them.

Light Sloops can be hit though using Broadsides if you 'Lean the Ship' by turning away from them while firing the guns (the ship will tilt into the turn - making that side lower in the water). This 'lowers' the side to their level and allows the broadsides to hit the Light Sloop...

Just a suggestion ;)

I do not think this is a glitch. I think it simply adds to the strategy of the game!

no glitch just a small target, use mine all the time, with or with out crew.

I too feel very strongly that all light sloops should be swatted like flies.

And, conversely, I like the dynamic of a small manuverable ship that has speed on it's side.

However, and I loathe using this term in such a fantastical environment as POTCO, the "realism" of it's hull strength give me screaming fits. If a war frig has 12600 hull points then a light sloop should have about 2 (okay, 3). A cannon ball within 50 yards of the sloop should create a big enough slash to capsize it. I've hit light sloops with 3 rounds of fury at close range and it still floats - which, isn't a fair comparison of the perception of relative hull strengths.

If someone is able to ram a light sloop, it should explode into a million little fragments and a pop up should appear to the Captain of the sloop: "You're trying to find all the bits and pieces of your ship - which are now being turned into umbrella's for carribbean drinks by the locals. It will be one hour before your regenerated. Please sit patiently and agonize about your decision to use a light sloop in a naval battle".

Is there any evidence of an actual historical situation where a light sloop was able to sink a war ship? Ok - I apologize for that question. I am once again allowing reality to intrude on the situation...........

Just for historical purposes... real pirates used smaller more faster ships (and not the War Frigates we use ;) ) for attacks unless travelling in large fleets...

But - as for gameplay - the Light Sloop does have quiet the advantage which should be 'leveled' somewhat as 3-6 fury should send it to the bottom.

LOL :D Thats what I do after I sink one.... sit back - steer the wheel and take a sip of my drink with the newly made umbrella ;)

The stories I have read, and the documentary I watched last week on the history channel, both suggest that pirates used the "trading up method" to satiate their need for ships.

Pirate takes a light sloop up against a light frigate - then assumes control of the light frigate until he captures a galleon - trading again ad nauseum until finally Black Sam captures the Whydah (i.e. the ultimate treasure - think the "USS Constitution" with a hull filled with 100 royal's, each with diamonds).

Not - light sloop sinks War Frigate. Too many jumps and skips in the logic chain.

IMHO the light sloop hull needs to be reduced to the point where glancing in its general direction puts it in immediate peril of sinking - or, the war class ships should be increased accordingly (e.g. multiply existing amount x 1000).

Since we all know that pirates used Fury and Lightening shot back in the good old days, why can't we have a Sloop (Cruz) Missile shot that only works against light sloops. Just as a red circle appears under NPC's on ranged ground attacks (pistol/dagger/staff), when you select the Sloop Missile a red circle appears around the sloop and you fire it off. It's guidance system then takes over in much the same way the daggers fly even when the NPC moves.

BOOM!!! No more pesky sloop.

LOL!!! :D That's what we need right there....

~~~~~~~~~~==D \4/ <-- Light sloop running for cover LOL

(Wood Seeking Light Sloop Missle With Red Explosive Tip LOL)

As for the historicial - agreed - I mean, who isn't gonna trade up when they get the chance :) When I get home I'll do an edit to post the Pirates Historicial Pages I use for fact finding sometimes (but really - there are actually several good ones by just using Google ;) )

Wood Seeking Light Sloop Missle with Red Explosvie Tip


In the immortal words of the two paper-type cartoon characters from the Guiness commercials........



BRILLIANT!!!!!!!!

In my opinion any light sloop is a coward because they can't get sunk easily.
Not saying your a coward.
I told some people they were cowards using a light sloop and they said "no we're just smart".
So I said yeah a coward and smart. :P

Light sloops should be easier to target in PVP.
They are easy out of PVP so why not in PVP?

To be clear, I'm not saying that the difficulty of hitting a light sloop is a glitch. I am saying (as MacIronhawk picked up on) that they are much easier to hit with broadsides in pve than in pvp, which makes me think they reduced the targetable area for light sloops in pvp situations (or maybe it is always that way when it is a player's ship as opposed to an npc's ship). Either way, it is a major imbalance issue in pvp.


The glitch I am referring to is the repair glitch, which is an entirely different matter...although, a light sloop in pvp with a Master Sailing captain, Master Cannoning gunner, and a 3rd person using the repair glitch is almost unstoppable.

After reading the posts here I have to agree with Tuefenhandel's Hull Strength example. The more I think about it this is probably the best solution to this problem. Just make the Light Sloops go down with 3 to 4 shots in pvp and the targeting issue wouldn't matter. Either that or limit Light Sloops to regular Cannon Ball ammo with the cannons since that is the level range of people using that ship in pve. Also, there are no NPC Light Sloops that fire anything other than regular cannon balls...so it fits.

I'm by far not a coward. I get sunk just as much as everyone else. If you can sail worth beans it shouldn't matter what you are in or against.

I dnt agree with this statement. Because then you should also limit the other ships accordingly which means no fury or thunder. If you are going to be unfair to one ship be unfair to them all.

Not only throughout history, but recently, too, terrorists and pirates use tiny ships to get the job done.

The modern navy does not have purchase requests for large ships. They are huge targets, slow to maneuver and very expensive. Rowboats, however, can have bombs of every imaginable size and type on board.

I have found aiming at light sloops with cannon to be IDENTICAL in pve and pvp. Broadsides targetting for no apparent reason was broken horrifically for the whole game, when SvS was released. Lower range, lower damage, slower shot velocity, broken animation (e.g. shots landing 8 boat lengths BEHIND a light galleon count as hits - but only in SvS) yet inexplicably, manual cannons were made more powerful.

In real life, ramming speed would deal a LOT more damage. Not like ten times more, but about a hundred times more damage than the game does. A small terrorist speed boat hitting the side of a USN battleship (Yemen? Oman?) a couple years ago did a historic amount of damage. But not because the attack was original, but instead, because the USN didn't/couldn't shoot it as it got too close. (Presumably, it was because of spies on the USN ship, allowing the speed boat to get so close.)

The same tiny boat vs. huge boat is mentioned in the Old Testament. It is not a new problem. Just a bit more exaggerated in real life, as opposed to this game where you actually can somehow hit them.

Now when my light sloop sinks, it usually is from someone cheating, after I've hit them a dozen or more times and they take no damage. They will turn and fire one or two thunderbolts and my ship is gone. As far as I know, my light sloop has never been hit by broadsides (in pve or pvp.)

I'm sorry but those of you claiming there is no difference are simply wrong, I can sink an NPC Light Sloop with my broadsides with a single volley time and time again, as long as they are not right next to me.

Regardless of how far away it is in PVP (in range), you will be lucky to hit it with 1 or 2 cannon balls out of a volley from a War Frigate or even War Galleon. It could be standing still sniping at targets and you still have a very high chance of missing it all together. Don't forget either that those 2 cannon balls that DO hit only damage it for something in the neighborhood of 34 points of damage each with no previous damage on the ship. That doesn't even take 1/4 off the total health of the ship, as opposed to a single broadside volley against any other ship in the game which does massive amounts of damage.

In PVE (as well as PVP) distance DOES and SHOULD matter when it comes to using Broadsides against smaller ships. The further away while staying in range the better (assuming no change in speed/course of the target). Unfortunately, in pvp as opposed to pve...the shots just don't hit.

Is that your primary complaint? But, computer ships always go in one direction. Pirate players almost always avoid incoming shots by twisting and going backwards. NPC ships can't hit me when I do that - pirate players can't hit me with their broadsides either. No magic to it - I'm sure most high level sailors must do the same in this game. On larger ships, it makes much less difference. On a light sloop, I can dodge between two cannonballs, if I'm pointing at the boat that is shooting.

Have you tried rotating your camera view to see just where your cannonballs are going? For most broadsides aiming/targeting, nothing beats the compass. But for small targets (ahem, like the light sloop) you have to aim more accurately than you can with only the compass. Which in turn, means you have to have direct visual cues to line up on and practice on. Not only is it weird to get used to using right-mouse while sailing, you also have to re-learn how to aim.

I agree that all sailing aspects SHOULD be the same in PVE and PVP. I'm just not convinced that "broadsides targeting" is actually different. The disparity you are seeing could be due to the fact that NPC ships always go forward, never stopped, never going backwards.

OK, re-reading what you actually said, instead of what I thought you said, I have to apologize and agree completely. Broadsides targeting in PVP is different than it is in PVE, but should not be.

i do the rotating camera view thing all the time, and i can still never shoot those pesky things!! i wonder if they could make it that for some ships, you dont even need ramming speed to ram them, cause in reality a war frigate even touching a light sloop would cause it to capsize completely, get sucked underwater from the turbulence, and smashing it into little toothpicks for the war frigates crew to use to clean their teeth.

That much, they have in the game already. Use a light sloop to ram something? 150 damage in pve, 70 damage in svs. But only if you hit exactly mid-ship on the target SvS ship (otherwise scored as a complete miss.)

Use a war frigate to ram? 1,800 damage (maybe more now in svs.) Only have to come within 1/2 mile of where the light sloop is, for it to score as a hit.

I don't know anyone with rank 5 ramming speed. My light sloop has only 2200 hull, though. So a war frigate passing eight to ten boat lengths behind me, yes, will cause me to drop to very-low red level, or sink if I'd been hit by a stray cannonball first.

Personally, I can own any man who comes up on a light sloop. But, it gets annoying, and, we can't even hit the ships hardly anymore, any light ships that is. Even outside of Ship PvP I can hardly hit light ships with broadsides. May as well, make Ramming speed skills for War ships into Extra speed.

i like the lite sloop being maxed out it fun to go take down large ship with, in svs i hav no trouble sinkin them, use ur fury anf lightin to take them out.

Yeah... well, I got my war frigate totally owned by a light sloop once.

I agree that for some reason, the light sloops seem to be harder to hit with broadsides in SvS. I've also noted that my war sloop will often get hit from broadsides being fired from someone I'm directly (perpendicular) behind and a couple of ship lengths back. No way a broadside should be able to hit me...but they do. Really ticks me off. The only thing that bothers me with the light sloops is that they won't stick around for a battle. They're the first ones I'll go after, but as soon as they're threatened they run and hide...and they're too quick to catch.

On that note, does anyone know why my War Sloop is the slowest ship on the sea? I even have 5 marks in the Wind Catcher, yet can't keep up with any ship when they turn to run away...that is totally annoying.

Those things you describe happen to me as well.

Backwards firing broadsides bite. They POSSIBLY could be due to lag (but because I only ever see it coming from ships that are already glitched out, I doubt it.)

Windcatcher seems to have no effect now, in PvE or PvP. I wasn't sure, when they released PvP sailing, but I'm convinced now. If you get close enough to hear an enemy do a broadsides, you can look them up in DisneyXD - Community - Player Channel - Directory - Search by pirate name - Open - then switch to see their sailing skill points. If they have five points on full sail (previously a useless skill past rank 1) and zero on windcatcher (previously a very useful skill, both at at rank 1 and especially at rank 5) then it is a safe bet, that they know a programmer whom you don't.

My light sloop runs after it has been hit once, because it went from 100% to 15% hull, from your one hit.

I don't know if I can contribute this to lag...I'll actually see the cannon-balls shooting directly out the side of the opposing ship, nowhere near mine, but I'll still take damage. This needs to be fixed...especially if it's happening to more than just me.

As shown in the beautiful diagram below....there should be NO WAY for an enemy (dark purple) to hit me (light purple) with its right broadsides (shown in red)...but they DO!!!

Direction of boat travel shown by arrows....both ships doing clockwise rotation.
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~~~~~~~~~~^^^^OOOOOOOOO~
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~~~~~~~~~~OO~O~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~O~O~O~~~~~~~~~~
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You guys have gotten completely off topic. This thread is about the inability to hit light sloops with broadsides in SvS and their over armored hulls when compared to War class vessels.

Stay on topic please.

Furthermore, the outrageous claims being made by those who are proponents of using light sloops in SvS such as:

"My light sloop runs after it has been hit once, because it went from 100% to 15% hull, from your one hit." (only if a War Frigate rammed you as a single shot of Thunderbolt with 5 pts in it does about 34 damage in SvS)

and

"Use a war frigate to ram? 1,800 damage (maybe more now in svs.) Only have to come within 1/2 mile of where the light sloop is, for it to score as a hit." (the only explanation for this would be lag)

are completely ludicrous and do not constitute valid arguments. IMHO this is an important matter for SvS to succeed in this game. I personally get so ****ed when my War Frigate gets sunk by a Light Sloop that I log off for the day; especially in an extended fight when I start with no damage at all and lose to a light sloop that I can barely get to half hull. It is simply ludicrous and needs to be fixed.

For those of you wanting to espouse the realities of smaller ships fighting larger ships in real life, consider this...

A hole the size of a cannon ball in a single hull ship (think row boat) as small as a light sloop would literally sink the ship as it would be impossible for even a full (3 man) crew to bail out the water as fast as it would be coming through the hole. So if you really want to go down that "...but in reality" road, a single hit would sink a light sloop.

On topic:

Quit your whining and learn to shoot better.

He can't hit the light sloop because he has "bad aim", but only because light slopps are too small to hit! When firing at a light slopp when you are sailing a War Frigate, half or more of the cannonballs from your broadsides miss, even if the light sloop has a level 1 captain with no experience and is standing completely still. Can you believe trying to hit it when it has a level 40 captain with a ton of SvS experience using full sail and ramming speed? It is completly unfair to people who spent hours on hours trying to buy a War Frigate for SvS and other reasons, only to be sunk by a light sloop which somebody bought with gold from behind the couch. Now, i hope you guys understand.

- Captain Del Darkskull

How does more than half my broadside rounds missing a light sloop while some of the rounds hit in any way constitute an aiming problem on my part. Read the rest of the posts in this thread if you want to participate in this conversation.

Anyway, try doing the method described earlier on how to aim you broadsides downward, it works...or heck, maybe you could actually manuever your ship into proper position, release the helm and man a cannon for a second. Or maybe you can just complain so they alter the game to your style of play. I've only had real problems with the light sloops who cheat (repair glitch) or the ones who hover around and go in for the kill when my ship is wounded from a real fight (against a war ship).

You ever shot at something small with a shotgun only to have half the pellets miss, but if you shoot at the same target with a high powered rifle and some aim, you'll hit it...doing a good deal more damage then the shotgun pellets that actually hit? Hmmm............

Just trying to help you out of your frustration. Arrrrrrrrrrr

Your misplaced insults are simply bizarre. When I get hit with a single shot of thunder (from a glitched boat) my light sloop's health goes to red (if I was at 100%) or I sink. I've never seen a mere 34 damage to my boat, from thunderbolt. Not ever.


The ramming speed experiments I did with a friend, were on a quiet server - Will in his War Frigate, me in my light sloop (both of us level 40.) He did not have to come anywhere near me, for his ramming speed to register the 1800 damage.


Now,

I completely sympathize with you, when you say a glitched light sloop came out of nowhere and sunk you. That happens to me, too. But in fair games, my White Warrior light sloop sinks a lot of boats. When glitchers appear, I sink. There seems to be no middle of the road, so I don't bother much with SvS anymore, even though it held the most promise for any part of the Pirates Online game.

I've seen it happen a lot. My thunderbolt will hit ships for 84 all the time (that's with 5 points in it)...it's not until I hit the same locatiothat it registers hitn or the proper spot on the ship s between 880-1080.

Is that off-topic....i hope not :piratear:

The "O"s are cannonballs, the "^" is enemy ship and "<" is your ship, right?


Yes, that is exactly what I was talking about. I have witnessed this too many times, where there is no possible way for them to hit me, yet they do. I can be exactly on their stern, or any number of boat lengths away from their their stern. On compass, they appear perfectly perpendicular to my boat (that is, so my broadsides will hit their stern perfectly) yet my shots miss and theirs hit me. Visually, (on screen, not on compass) they appear perfectly perpendicular, yet my shots miss and theirs hit me.

Armchair diagnostics suggest lag is possibly the cause, HOWEVER, the game play is usually smooth prior to, during and after that. (And no, I'm not talking about being in a mob of boats, but instead only two boats, fairly far from any other action.) So no, I can't attribute this to lag, either.
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I would call that a glitched "invulnerable" light sloop. Can we test this please? You are the only person nearby with rank 5 thunder, that I can ask. I'm on Cortevos server right now.
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Well. My Friend Eric came on (with rank 5 thunder) and a single shot to my light sloop (we are both lvl 40) did 96 damage. But he hit the mast and a friend of his came on while we were still testing it (and sunk me.) Getting a little playful revenge, I chased his war frigate to the NW corner of the map, where he ran into a death omen. (NW of Rumrunner's!) After a little bit more miscommunication, he got disconnected. So we never did get to test it, to see how much damage a real hit from thunder does.

That sounds about right....the 96 was a hit to your stern because when you hit the mast of a ship, it doesn't tell you how much damage you did (at least not on my version). I'll hit a target from anywhere between 86-109 OR between 860-1100...nothing in between. The light sloops are tricky because you have to hit the perfect spot to register it at the higher numbers....but once you do..it's all over for them.

OK, so the claim that a rank 5 thunder even could do only 34 damage, is, as I thought, bogus.

Someone made the claim that a light sloop is equivalent to a dinghy or row boat. That is equally preposterous. A light sloop is a sea-worthy craft with eight cannons, each weighing a half a ton. (The car in your driveway probably weighs less than one of those cannons!) On a sea worthy craft (50' to 60' long) there are compartments - no, a single cannonball cannot sink a ship like that. A 120' long war frigate shouldn't really have that much more "hull" - in reality, the bigger war frigates don't exist (they'd sink like a rock, first wave over the bow.) But if they did, they would be more susceptible to being sunk. Way more likely to sink than a stealthy PT boat.

===

BadbonesX, Disney HAS answered your request. The target area of a light sloop (with last night's software update - 1AM 9/5/2008) has changed from one boat length and one boat width, to 10 boat lengths and about 100 boat widths, for a light sloop. That is, any enemy cannonball landing anywhere behind me (from the aft of my boat all the way to uncharted waters) scores as a hit now.

GLITCHED light sloops, however, are still 100% invulnerable.

They also disabled ramming speed entirely. It now gives all nearby ENEMY ships a sudden burst of speed (even if they were stationary) then stops your boat for one second then sends your boat careening off randomly for about 5 seconds THEN maybe does damage to something. (Dunno about that last part - was never close enough to anything to be sure.)

I assume they also finished disabling grape shot, in this last update. I assume that assassinating glitchers with round shot now also fails.

Enough is enough. Seeya.

Hmmm....I was playing all night last night and didn't notice any of the things you mentioned. But for some reason, my 5-point lightnings were hitting ships for as low as 45....***? That was seriously ticking me off.

Personally I didnt see a problem with the light sloop "hitbox" as we used to call them.

Light sloops are supposed to be hard to hit, they should also take far fewer strikes to sink.

To simply compare and say a "War Frigate" should always take out a "Light Sloop" which I think a few may generalize is not a logical comparison since it takes out the skills/abilities of those controlling them. Smaller ships have often in warfare used thier speed and prowess to outwit and defeat larger ships. The only issue here at hand to me, is glitching which doesnt seem to matter WHAT ship you sail.

Big ships have to aim better, or take a cannon where you have more control. I have used the method of turning my ship to aim cannons downwards quite frequently, and it works.

Disney needs to fix the glitching and stop catering to those whining about the game being too hard (IMO).

From your keyboard to D's inbox....hopefully.

I single out the lite sloops now and attack em aggressively because they have high lvl players on them. Use basic cannon shot, or grape shot. Get in close and turn/circle with them. Don't use any other shot as it is not as effective. Also, at a distance from them while steering, locate where they are on your compass, when they are barely visible in red - fire while circling around them, keeping the same distance. They can be had, the slippery little so-and-so's, I love getting em now!
Jack Aubrey all ships "Sea Mongrel"

Thats the ticket, study your opponent, and figure out how to beat them. I like that! Makes for a challenge, and success is ever so much more gratifying.

Looking forward to upcoming fixes and new content being put on open once they get it fixed up. :)

Sometimes a light sloop will come up next to me in my war sloop and sink me in 15 seconds with fury. How? I don't know. I can't seem to sink them easily even though I am hitting them wioth every shot, but they sure can sink me easily. I figured out grape shot works best on them. After graping them to death, I fury them to death.:)

I haven't been out there for a good while, but light sloop will whip anyone one on one, well until the can't hit anything people won out over those that knew how. War frigate, of course, you would be using a full crew or why would you have that ship out there?

Other words a person solo with a war frigate is running around acting cool that they have the biggest most expensive ship? I was happy to sell some of mine and adjust to a small sloop, basically didn't have a choice. Since getting on any ship with a crew was such lag or game crash, with all the glitches.

Now that they took more than half the damage away from cannon, made the small sloop practically as big as a war frigate for those that can't hit anything, likely I won't be back out there. Only real battles I was getting were crewed ships, who a lot of the time still lost sitting on top of you missing. Or chasing down other little sloops, which for some reason I never had trouble hitting and sinking.

Glitches such as healing definitely paid its toll, and most I found I would target until they did the usual race and dock at some island. Now and then a few were pretty unstoppable, and few from your side Spanish/French would ever help, made them more powerful. If I ever put a second character on the little sloop to make it even to some of the big crews rarely we would walk away loosing. Most can't hit a stationary target no hope with a moving one.

All the war frigates I sunk, I would say 90% had no more than one person firing cannon, how many are on it? More realistically lets say how many are on one side, that could be utilized against a opponent at once.

We took out a war frigate with a full crew for like 24 hours, never had problems sinking anything that really came up against us, even several at a time.

To compare damage with something like lightning bolt, you also need to know the important stats. Did they have 4 points in barrage, did you try it with/without open fire. Key stats like this is what matters, and basically brings it back to who knows what they are doing, versus who is whining everything should be easy for them and they shouldn't have to work at stats to be better. Its also after you do damage it does the big points, so a lot of the time several shots with little broadsides would soften the ship up before using cannon.

I sure know if a small sloop is what was giving me the most trouble, it would be the very first thing I would go out on and see whats going on. War frigates always so conveniently lined up sideways so you could do most damage. Only time ya saw one turn at ya "where ya did less damage" is cause they were trying to ram you. Use to laugh all the time everyone always keeping the ship to the side. Obviously I don't need to say where best damage is to the little sloops with all the practice and checking into it people obviously have done?

I use to see 1800 damage all the time, on a light sloop from getting rammed. Alot of the time with that one single hit taking you down to being hit once with a cannon. The biggest problems I have seen is this whining by people that won't go out there and see what works. You are in a war frigate you better learn to use ramming, and jump to a cannon. No differant than a light sloop seeing someone is about to ram and get out of the way in time. Its broadsides work just fine, and one of the best things in the game. Forcing some people to not have a free ride and actually have to learn another skill.

Wish sometimes I could just take out a nice paper war frigate and see if some people could actually hit it with a cannon.

Poison Elf, I agree completely. It is not the light sloop that is a problem, it is the glitches. Not repair-on-the-run so much, but definitely invulnerability, infinite ammo, auto-repair, invisibility, triple-shot thunder, 360 cannon and 360 broadsides being the worst offenders.

Since grape shot became completely ineffective on glitchers, I've stopped trying to play SvS. Last couple weeks have been profoundly relaxing and enjoyable (particularly in comparison to when I was still trying to SvS.)

Rule of argumentative thumb: complain only when skill isn't part of the equation. You see, some of you may not be able to hit that Sloop because there is a person in that Sloop as well. Now, if he is able to maneuver against your shots, you shouldn't complain.

Furthermore, some arguments (in truth, they be other options that make neglible the need for drastic change) have been presented: you can lean your ships, you can fire a cluster of Grapes, etc.