Post Meeting Discussions

[Eva Jewel]

Thank you for the clarification Bart thats why I asked

[Dr. Zeppers]

I know im not part of TBC, and my apologies if I am jumping in where I have no business, however I believe there are some major inaccuracies being stated in the VOIP debate.

There is something to be said about applying rules in the manners for which they were intended, and not bending the letter of them to apply in ways they were not intended.

The rule of 3rd party applications is a rule designed to encompass those that would use 3rd party applications to cheat. Applicatons that would change aspects of the game, edit gold, give weapons, grant special powers, grief other players, etc (ie cheats). Not because they can be used to circumvent communication rules in the game.

VOIP is not new, it was developed years ago, and has been in use by gamers for years. It has never been considered a cheat, merely a tool. Those competing that do not use it will definately be at a disadvantage to those that do.

The only rules applied towards such applications are the sharing of such contact information in the game itself. Giving emails, usernames, ip addresses, etc. Anything that leads to sharing of personal information IN THE GAME.
This is why noone has ever been banned for using one, not because Disney cannot tell they are using them as has been suggested, identifying known applications running in memory is very easily done if they had rules specifically against these applications. The rule is to cover those cheating applications that are not only designed to change the game, but to hide themselves from identification in the first place. I've gamed, and ladder matched for years, I know what cheating and the use of "3rd party applications" means in a games TOS.

People have even gone through steps to contact, and inquire with the games customer service/moderation staff and been told its alright, but theres still argument I guess over what Disney's lawyers meant, instead of how those that run the game interpret and apply the rule?

Stretching the term 3rd party applications as I have seen some apply it here could very easily be applied to POF as well in the aspect that Internet Explorer (or other browser) absolutely is without a doubt, a 3rd party application, and viewing/sharing information thru it via a 3rd party website would also be a violation of TOS. One could continue to stretch it and say you cant use your cell phone while playing because it is/uses 3rd party applications. Which btw VOIP is more reknowned these days for replacing our telephones, so applying the rules as stringently as has been suggested may disallow use of your telephone.

Now I think most think that idea is somewhat ridiculous, however if you apply the term 3rd party applications as loosely as a few have suggested, where does it end?

[Eva Jewel]

*CLAPS LOUD FOR DR ZEPPER*, then..a *STANDING OVATION* WOOT!

[Pirate Bood]

Originally Posted by Dr. Zeppers

One could continue to stretch it and say you cant use your cell phone while playing because it is/uses 3rd party applications.

Zep, my phone is not attached to my internet and therefore not prg based, point is... the original point that is, this subject was thrown up by the use of chat/voice prgs in a competetive event, not all participants were aware of the advantage it gave some in that event. Further it brought up how this information IS PASSED ON IN GAME, and how that is a violation, it also brought up many interpretations of the TOS from mods, administrators and players alike. SOME with evidence that bans are imposed due to this particular violation. I know of one pirate whose account was terminated regarding xfire.
NOW what it boils down to IS when reading a thread such as this we need to take in all angles of the advantage/disadvantage, violation, moral and tactical issues regarding this subject AND stop bickering the 'presumed' meaning of the TOS.
When dealing with a section of the game as volatile as SVS can be, where pirates are overly keen to yell 'CHEAT' any time they are experiencing latency problems or any other benign oddity of which there are many in the game, we need to be clear on the every day common place opinions and componants of that game. BEING clear means we are being proactive in our gameplay so that we no longer need to feel we are 'fumbling around in the dark' harbouring resentful feelings or harassing/being harassed by others over A GAME.
Please visit the motions thread for further reading regarding this subject and the move to resolve last weeks UNRESOLVED question, so that I can, along with others concerned about these prgs, decide whether or not to participate in TBC events.

Maya

[JDAnne]

Maya please stop, aparently you have moved this argument to a point where it doesn't even concern the initial issue at hand. Where you are at now with your discussion has nothing to do with this competition or TBC

Btw the team that had the highest score last week was of mixed guild and no voip was used.

[Pirate Bood]

The out come of last weeks event was not part of the issue either, it was simply:

Reassure us that the events held under TBC will be fair FOR ALL.

The tangents that this, as any thread, has taken are actually very valid too and obviously people DO have comments to add here on the subject.

Clarification.

Maya

[The Skirata Clan]

May I please remind all to abide by POF rules while posting. If you are not sure on those please read them there is a link to them in the main POF page.


Back to topic...

[Dr. Zeppers]

Originally Posted by Pirate Bood

Zep, my phone is not attached to my internet and therefore not prg based, point is... the original point that is, this subject was thrown up by the use of chat/voice prgs in a competetive event, not all participants were aware of the advantage it gave some in that event. Further it brought up how this information IS PASSED ON IN GAME, and how that is a violation, it also brought up many interpretations of the TOS from mods, administrators and players alike. SOME with evidence that bans are imposed due to this particular violation. I know of one pirate whose account was terminated regarding xfire.

Your absolutely right the cell phone part was a stretch, but that in itself was the point. You should not blindly apply the phrase regarding 3rd party applications to include whatever is convenient, even contradicting facts received from the games administration. Do you realize when you make statements like "i know a pirate got in trouble for xfire" you implicate the application itself was the problem when more than likely the issue of passing their xfire information in the game was the issue, which is against the rules, a point everyone agrees on.

Make your groups decisions regarding passing of information in the game if you wish by all means, but Disney has this covered for you, why hassle it?

If you are debating over whether or not to allow VOIP use in TBC events, then I recommend everyone consider some facts (further contemplation on how to apply the 3rd party application is not facts, only opinions, mine included).

VOIP in itself does not warrant banning (per the games staff, since they are the governing body, going above them is unwarranted) (A member called and verified this).

VOIP can give an advantage over teams/players not using it. (However, if all are free to use it, its a choice. Should some peoples choices dictate others choices?)

VOIP has been used fairly in gaming for years and works well, it is not new technology, ive had it run behind my games with dialup!

Those that do not want to use it, will often try to keep everyone from using it. (This is a fact drawn not from here, but from 10 years of experience in online game competing, they dont want to use it, and since others using it is an advantage, they want it taken away)

Those that do use it, do not care if others choose to use it or not. (live and let live.. wonderful approach)

How will you police it?
How will you detect its use?
How can you fairly apply any rule prohibiting it if you have no control, or power to make a valid conclusion?

It just festers dissent in your court.
I recommend it be a use if you want approach.
If you feel you are at a disadvantage, then make use of it.
Most teams using it would probably be happy to make you a channel and share if they could.

It is not my intention to anger anyone, if I did so, my apologies. I have been around the block on this issue before however. To me, its water under the bridge. Seeing others struggle through it, I thought I would try to help.

May TBC prosper...

[Kate Keelmorgan]

Ok I would first like to appoligize for not being at last weeks meeting as I am the rep of the Black Shark Inc. However I did participate in the SVS event.

"Any program that is used in pirates to gain an advantage of your opponant in any way is a violation of the rules." - I'd like for you folks who think its an advantage to please not how many times you sink us lol. Cause its a lot. A whole lot.

"I WILL not be made to feel obliged to break DISNEY rules in order to keep up with the events on TBC" - I'm pretty sure that pirates can't make pirates do anything.

"The motion put forward by TBC member Davy Burnrat seeking reassurance over the use of other prgs for voice and chat was prior to the event, at the time he like many thought it WAS a TBC event." - this issue was brought to the court by someone who isn't even a member>?

"-Crews were talking in local which again a major cause of lag. " - seriously chat causes lag?

I can't seem to understand why this is an issue. I don't have an issue with folks using. Cause from my position on the boat it isn't much of an advantage by far. If Roxy says its np then there is no use in kicking a dead horse. This can be debated for ever and never solved. This court is about having fun. Getting along. Setting a good example. Or at least that is how I understand it. I think what Phil did was great and again would like to invite those of you who think its an advantage to please take note on how much those that use it sink. Or come on board a ship. I'm sure you would be welcomed.
Looking forward to seeing you all wednesday.
WOOT WOOT
Kate Keelmorgan

[Pirate Bood]

Originally Posted by Dr. Zeppers

Your absolutely right the cell phone part was a stretch, but that in itself was the point. ....
If you are debating over whether or not to allow VOIP use in TBC events, then I recommend everyone consider some facts (further contemplation on how to apply the 3rd party application is not facts, only opinions, mine included).

VOIP in itself does not warrant banning (per the games staff, since they are the governing body, going above them is unwarranted) (A member called and verified this)

VOIP can give an advantage over teams/players not using it. (However, if all are free to use it, its a choice. Should some peoples choices dictate others choices?)

May TBC prosper...

Yess ZEP it is your OPINION as all these posts are opinion... AGAIN PLS DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND THE POINT, I feel a few are being altogether tooo defensive here, probably because the lines on interpretation of the TOS are all too blurred

BUT to stress:

NO ONE IS TRYING TO GET ANYONE BANNED, that isnt about pirating either and all Im interested in is PIRATING.

A REMINDER:

Originally Posted by Pirate Bood

...ok for those of you commenting on this thread that think it is ONLY about the use of other prgs for voice and chat that is the issue here, AS IF that isnt big enough on its own, I would like to remind you that this issue was raised because of an event that was held last tuesday and at the time was not a TBC event.
...''...In the cold hard light of the event, the organiser took the captains from their crews at short notice prior to the sail to give them rules, leaving little time for the information to be passed on before the event, they were not allowed to crew with their ship mates making communication without team spk/chat prg awkward.''

...I felt belittled over seeking reassurance regarding non use of team spk or other chat prgs. I for one, and there are many like me, am not prepared to break disney rules on 3rd prty prgs and it simply isnt practical or fair to make us feel that we have to do it to be in with a chance of competeting.....'

....If you do not agree with the disney rules or the straightforward interpretation of them, then take it up with disney instead of arguing that your view must be correct....

Maya

Originally Posted by Pirate Bood

When Davy Burnrat put his question to the court on wednesday night it was a valid question and remains unresolved.

In this case I too, coming from the perspective of the 'under dog' sought the reassurance from the court with regard to an issue ....
BUT
As a court we have to decide on whether its fair for those of us who are not prepared to break with Disney rules and protocol (whether that be for security reasons or for moral reasons) to be OBLIGED to, in order to keep up in these events add a talk programme, which as Roxanna has pointed out is entered into at our own risks.

Maya Mara

And in Davey's own words:

Originally Posted by Davey Burnrat

.... I just ask that it not be used in the contest so everyone else that uses it will be on a level playing field.... Davy

Reassurance was requested that those choosing not to violate Disney TOS would not have to compete in TBC events where others were playing the voice/chat prg advantage.
The answer came back from TBC that whilst TBC would not condone the use of any method of violation of the DISNEY rules players are to use their own discretion as to whether they do use the prg which is the SUBJECT of he original question.
This offered no reasurance to those concerned, so the onus was put upon those who were in need of reassurance in the first place. Inform us if the prgs will be used and let all decide whether or not to participate in TBC events so that we do not have to feel obliged to make any kind of violation or compromise our own security to compete in them.

Maya

Originally Posted by Tobias_Walker

Well maybe its time to speak up here...number one...i realize this is an open forum...and anyone can speak. Davy has brought this up, and he is not a member of the bretheren court...since his guild pretty much disolved he created his own....

Which he showed up at the court meeting as a member of his new guild which was not an approved guild. He then proceded to take the floor and and put this to the court?? How So??

Also if you check and watch us...(the Sharks) youll see that the vista clock glitch has been sinking us time after time....

Davey had permission to talk at the event as granted by Roxanna, all attendees at the event are permitted to comment, non members cannot vote.
Since Davey motioned this point when he was still in a member guild and hopes that his own guild will be members also then your point is unfair and ungrounded.

TBC does not support the accusations from one guild to another of any form of cheating please be reminded of The Brethren Court Codex :
Article I, Section I, Paragraph I
All guilds participating in the Brethren Court agree to be respectful to ALL guilds and guild mates represented by the alliance. Harassment and accusations against other guilds will not be tolerated. We are all here to work together for the benefit of all pirates looking to make a difference.
AND ALSO
Article I, Section II, Paragraph I
Mates not respecting the Code will be subject to reprimand by their Guild Master, including Demotion, Suspension from the Guild or a BAN from the Guild depending on the severity of Disruption(s).

TBC

Maya Mara
Keeper of the Court

[Tobias_Walker]

Well maybe its time to speak up here...number one...i realize this is an open forum...and anyone can speak. Davy has brought this up, and he is not a member of the bretheren court...since his guild pretty much disolved he created his own....

Which he showed up at the court meeting as a member of his new guild which was not an approved guild. He then proceded to take the floor and and put this to the court?? How So??

Also if you check and watch us...(the Sharks) youll see that the vista clock glitch has been sinking us time after time....

P.S. So show me where having a voip helps you when the ships your shooting at isnt even where the computer says they are when they are clocked way ahead...

[Billkat]

maya
i think its time you drop this asd you have been going at it with me over a year now.
now i have not nor has any member of my guild ever gave any info in game if we did we would not be in potco plane and simple.
my members hgave been gameing for years and have been using voip for over 4 years. so its time you got over it and move on thank you

[Pirate Bood]

Originally Posted by Billkat

maya
i think its time you drop this asd you have been going at it with me over a year now.
now i have not nor has any member of my guild ever gave any info in game if we did we would not be in potco plane and simple.
my members hgave been gameing for years and have been using voip for over 4 years. so its time you got over it and move on thank you

My apologies Eric if you have taken this personally, it was never intended to be such. The issue was one of reassurance in the interest of fair game play and an even playing field in TBC events only.

Maya

[Tobias_Walker]

umm sorry but the day the meeting was held Davy was no longer a member of the heros...and had created the one he was on when speaking...

also was asked by someone...will have to look who... said that new guilds should be established before approved...think you said that the person quoting me...

So that mean...that if i just show up and ask for the floor and roxanna says ok...that i can bring motions...even though im not in a member of the courts guild?

[Pirate Bood]

Originally Posted by Tobias_Walker

umm sorry but the day the meeting was held Davy was no longer a member of the heros...and had created the one he was on when speaking...

also was asked by someone...will have to look who... said that new guilds should be established before approved...think you said that the person quoting me...

So that mean...that if i just show up and ask for the floor and roxanna says ok...that i can bring motions...even though im not in a member of the courts guild?

Tobias I am reminding you to keep this from being personal.
The Brethren Court Chair and Founder Roxanna who is leads the court by example granted permission for Davey to speak and it was appropriately motioned PRIOR to the meeting on the TBC forum here on POF.

Roxanna has shown great temperance with TBC, I agree frustrations regarding this issue have gone way beyond my expectation, but please take confidence in that TBC is lead by some one who is fair to all equally.

Maya Mara
Keeper of the Court